tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post2191131843728913273..comments2023-10-15T02:05:39.935-06:00Comments on As it is Written: Three Views on the New Testament Use of the Old TestamentAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14412247474926594732noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-68880988519191311702011-01-24T14:04:28.993-06:002011-01-24T14:04:28.993-06:00Tyler,
I'm part of a community that loves Wa...Tyler, <br /><br />I'm part of a community that loves Walter Kaiser and his way of understanding the relationship between the OT and the NT, but like you, when I tried to read his "Promise Plan of God" I found his basic hermeneutical approach very weak, and I was not convinced by his attempt to distance himself from dispensationalism while maintaining such a basic distinction between Israel and the Church. <br /><br />Given your interest in this subject, you might find the post I just wrote over at my blog interesting. It follows the approach I've seen in Hayes and Wright's work, which I've become pretty sold on. But I would love any input or critique you might have, if you get a chance to read it. <br /><br />Blessings,<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-16384484148928873442010-05-14T18:04:43.993-06:002010-05-14T18:04:43.993-06:00Looks like I got here just in time. Let's cle...Looks like I got here just in time. Let's clear up the MAJOR issue from the article...<br /><br />John Owen was never wrong about anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-14806853457411559192010-05-13T15:13:28.027-06:002010-05-13T15:13:28.027-06:00It's also absurd for Tyler to continue to talk...It's also absurd for Tyler to continue to talk about Scripture as a "most authoritative voice" in the singular, as if the Bible constituted one voice. He knows full well that there are many voices in Scripture, not all of which agree on everything. Talking about the Bible in terms of "most authoritative voice" is also misleading, because Tyler knows better than that. Which biblical voice is the "most authoritative"? Jesus', I presume. Well, which biblical Jesus? If Tyler wants to pretend like there's only one in "the text," eventually he's going to have to misinterpret the text in order to make it sound like a "single voice." <br /><br />I don't think it's the people Tyler is ministering to that are afraid of treating the text more like a conversation than a monologue. Some are, but the majority of those afraid of that are Tyler's bosses.Thom Starkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18436448315505182664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-37955986443288726132010-05-13T15:05:24.193-06:002010-05-13T15:05:24.193-06:00I wasn't being patronizing at all. Tyler is su...I wasn't being patronizing at all. Tyler is supposedly a nonfoundationalist. Yet he keeps reverting back to foundationalist ways of thinking. <br /><br />And the problem is not identifying God as the voice we're supposed to listen to. The problem is the simple equation of one set of texts as that authoritative voice of God, as well as the implicit refusal to recognize that God speaks outside those texts in "other voices," a truth to which Tyler's own Bible attests in numerous places. Tyler keeps talking as though any challenge to "biblical authority" means we're just setting ourselves up over against "God." We're saying our voice is more important than what God has already said. That assumes the Bible can be simply equated with "what God has said," and that is problematic on the ground. Nobody treats the Bible that way, no matter how much they claim they ought to. <br /><br />The need to discern God's voice isn't limited to the text of Scripture. God speaks everywhere and if we use the Bible as a trump card against all other voices, we're going to miss him. <br /><br />Most ordinary Christians get this: they just are afraid (or don't know how) to articulate this. I'm suggesting that Tyler is doing them a disservice by reinforcing a paradigm that only gets lip service and would be disastrous if taken seriously.Thom Starkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18436448315505182664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-57396715967220750822010-05-13T14:50:59.950-06:002010-05-13T14:50:59.950-06:00That sounds too harsh. I assumed that you were bei...That sounds too harsh. I assumed that you were being <i>playfully</i> patronizing, so I was trying to respond in kind.Michael DeFaziohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02967014146686906371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-57251436871096429602010-05-13T14:50:15.374-06:002010-05-13T14:50:15.374-06:00You're welcome for the sarcasm - my response t...You're welcome for the sarcasm - my response to what I perceived to be your (less than charitable) patronizing. I did not read "come into your own" as referring to his building up of the church. If I read you wrong, I apologize!<br /><br />Substantially, I don't agree. The single voice is at times elusive and always demands discernment (together), but I don't see trying to listen and discern as a disservice. <br /><br />I could use a little more nuancing of the difference between Scripture being the single authoritative voice and God being the single authoritative voice that is elusively embodied in and/or expressed through this authoritative body of texts. Not that the post was about that Tyler, but it's an important difference I think.Michael DeFaziohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02967014146686906371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-19259996363406448392010-05-13T13:51:40.183-06:002010-05-13T13:51:40.183-06:00In other words, perpetuating this dependency on th...In other words, perpetuating this dependency on the elusive "most authoritative voice" is doing his faith community a disservice.Thom Starkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18436448315505182664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-50120570541038829772010-05-13T13:50:08.371-06:002010-05-13T13:50:08.371-06:00you have talked me into reading it.you have talked me into reading it.TJ Lawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-5278368244774400102010-05-13T13:49:12.919-06:002010-05-13T13:49:12.919-06:00He wasn't worrying about "communal author...He wasn't worrying about "communal authority," Michael. He was worrying about a single, identifiable, "most authoritative voice" <i>for</i> the community. <br /><br />You can be be uncharitable about my "coming into your own" comment if you'd like. But you know that my point was that I think Tyler's ability to do theology for the church is hampered by his need for that "most authoritative voice." "Coming into your own" means doing good theology that is useful and helpful for real people on the ground.<br /><br />So thanks very much for the sarcasm.Thom Starkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18436448315505182664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-52281839220477627932010-05-13T13:44:49.820-06:002010-05-13T13:44:49.820-06:00Ditto on the summary.
FTR, I'm glad you worr...Ditto on the summary. <br /><br />FTR, I'm glad you worry more about communal authority than "coming into your own."Michael DeFaziohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02967014146686906371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8588016437086497122.post-26290124224355870312010-05-12T21:30:40.678-06:002010-05-12T21:30:40.678-06:00Well done, Tyler. Good summary.
"If scriptu...Well done, Tyler. Good summary. <br /><br />"If scripture is humiliated, what becomes the most authoritative voice for the faith community?" <br /><br />Once you're able to stop worrying about having access to a "most authoritative voice," I think you'll begin to come into your own.Thom Starkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18436448315505182664noreply@blogger.com